Lucio Furlani - CMO EMEA, Hewlett Packard Enterprise (Part 2)

Podcast Lucio Furlani

By Matt Dodgson

 

CHAPTERS;

00:00:59 How do you convince someone your marketing plan is the right thing to do?

00:07:27 What advice could you offer someone moving into a senior role where there isn't a huge peer population support, which I think is important to remember, and the pressure is on to make a good impression?

00:10:08 What's the most valuable marketing skill you can have?

00:15:47 Gender pay gap and percentage of male versus female leadership roles. Do you think this challenge needs addressing in our industry and if so, how?

00:19:44 Discussion about mentors..

00:23:52 What are the marketing skills of the future? 

00:25:27 What book do you recommend the most to B to B marketers or where do you read?

00:29:25 What parting words of wisdom or advice would you share with our audience?

TRANSCRIPT;

Fiona: 00:11 Welcome to Market Mentors, a podcast for the marks and leaders of today and tomorrow. I'm Fiona Jensen, a director and core-owner of market recruitment. For over a decade I've been helping B to B marketeers find the best jobs with great companies. Together we'll discover how marketing experts reach the top and learn from their experience. Ask career related questions, you can't get answers to elsewhere. Be Tough, be challenged, be mentored. Welcome to part two of our interview with Lucio Furlani, where we gain more insight, advice, and some great book recommendations from the sales and marketing expert.

Fiona: 00:59 How do you convince someone your marketing plan is the right thing to do?

Lucio: 01:07 You need to have facts and data behind it. Being a marketing plan, in my opinion it better be outside in. I see a lot of marketing plans which are inside out and sometimes I remind my team that marketing is marketing and not interning. So we are supposed to look into the market and understand the customers and so forth. That's very important to me. Again, fact base is number one. Then it needs to be structured. It needs to be put in a way that not only I can understand it, but also other people, where we depend on their support, can understand it even if they're not the super expert on whatever the plan is touching. It needs to be expressed in logical, simple terms that can be communicated.

Lucio: 02:03 You know the elevator speech, right? That's very true. I mean, you as a key member or myself as your executive, maybe I only have literally a few seconds to share an idea with the managing director or whoever. I need to be able to do that in a way that sounds very compelling to him or to her so that he will say, "Can you please check with my assistant and come and see me because I would like to know more?" Right? That's what you want to get.

Lucio: 02:35 So simplicity is important. I saw several situation where people are saying, "It's a huge opportunity. I know it super well, but you know, it's too complicated to tell you." It's too complicated. Yeah. We're not go nowhere. Right? And the same with customers. Customers normally buy things they understand and they can ... yep. So you need to be able to express your plan, your faults, your case in simple terms.

Fiona: 03:06 Brilliant. Focusing on short term [ROI 00:03:10] is so short sighted as the business likes to measure marketing by leads generated. How have you tackled this and persuaded them to look at the bigger picture? So that's quite a specific ask, isn't it?

Lucio: 03:24 Let's see if [crosstalk 00:03:25] I'm able to give a perspective. So to me it's not a short term is bad or shortsighted. So it's a balancing act. It's not one or the other. If you do not cover the short term well , if you don not have a good ROI, let me say this quarter or this month, maybe there is no next quarter, right? So frankly it's incredible. Demand generation is absolutely fundamental and it varies from company to company but a lot of demand generation depends on marketing and the ability of market to have a plan, execute excellently on the plan. So nothing wrong with a short term. You need to be able to fully appreciate it. Maybe it is not in your DNA, you're just not what you want to do. That's also totally fine. It's not like strategy's good, long term is good, tactics is not.

Lucio: 04:17 It's not for me. It's for more junior or less capable people. That's absolutely wrong, wrong approach, same dignity on the long term and short term. In fact, the best thing is when you are able to combine the two things together and create a good bridge so that the short term tactics maybe also become a way to test the market reactions or some ideas that you want to develop a little bit more in the meeting to the long term and the other way around. When you try your plan, maybe test it in the market or test with say ... Run some experiments, some pilots of it which probably can deliver some results more quickly. So that, when the two things work together hand in hand, I think it's a good recipe.

Fiona: 05:05 Oh, wow. Okay. So there's always an opportunity to improve or do things better on behalf of the business but it's understanding where the problem lies, I suppose, and then trying to improve it from that versus being too dictatorial. You're not looking at the long term strategy enough. Well, you've just basically said, well there's probably a valid reason why the company is focused on the short term. That's how they're going to survive and that's how they know that going in the right direction. But you can still implement or improve things, but you've got to be able to appreciate what the business objectives and the requirements are from day one and deliver against those before you can impact it on a longer term of.

Lucio: 05:52 Absolutely. Yeah. See there , well, is a balancing act is an or ... Is not a or game, is an and game. You need to be able to look into short term and long term at the same time.

Fiona: 06:04 And I love that piece. Sorry to talk over you, but it was your experience at the start that we were talking about. The fact that you've been in the sort of field, per se, where you are delivering against, you know, we need it this week, this month, this year to the strategic element. So if anyone's going to say you need both and both advantage your experience bellies that, doesn't it?

Lucio: 06:26 Yeah, and if you've seen the two worlds you can really ...

Fiona: 06:31 Appreciate the value ...

Lucio: 06:31 ... appreciate the value and make the two sides of the house talking and understanding each other better. I think you said something that's also very, very true in my opinion. Make sure you understand the problem before you jump to solution. Frame the problem well and then you'll find organisations hare too impatient and do not do that well enough.

Fiona: 06:59 Yeah. Which, again, was your planning as well, isn't it? The whole understand the direction that this at the start. Make sure you really understand why you're going to get somewhere, and how you intend to get there, and when and, how you're going to measure how you're getting there before you start doing anything. Very good point. So this, again, is quite a specific ask. So even with heaps of preparation, coaching, and development ... a move to a more senior role.

Fiona: 07:27 This person is about to move from senior manager to head of and saying that it can still feel daunting. And peers in a similar position have likened the first few weeks as winging it. What advice could you offer someone moving into a senior role where there isn't a huge peer population support, which I think is important to remember, and the pressure is on to make a good impression?

Fiona: 07:51 So I think this person is really sort of feeling the pressure and wants to perform well but obviously with the first management role is looking for some advice. What would you say?

Lucio: 08:03 If you can, first of all, make sure you have the right people on board. Your success will depend on the people you have. Sometimes you cannot do that or you're promoted and you have a given team. But still there will probably be the excellent people in the team, so rely on them.

Lucio: 08:22 Second piece of advice I would say; normally when in any situation you will be moved into a role because there are problems to solve. Absolutely. It's always the case. Problems are important but try to focus on the opportunity more than the problems. If the point the company's growing your team is the growth engine, contributes to company growth, and lot of the problems will become smaller, right? So focus on the up side. Focus on the opportunity.

Lucio: 08:57 Third piece of advice, again, with your people, make sure you give them a clear direction and then empower them because if the direction is clear, you give them the power, they will surprise you.

Fiona: 09:11 Brilliant piece of advice and I think, also, when you stepping up you kind of feel a bit of pressure to have to be able to have all the answers and I'm guessing this person probably feels like they might not have all of those answers. So what would you say about that with regards to advice? How can you handle that?

Lucio: 09:30 It's totally fine to say, "I don't know. I don't know but I believe it's important. I will try to find out. You know more about it and can you help me?" That's also a good approach, right? Nobody in life and for sure if you're a new hire in a new position, you're expected to know everything, right? I think it's a little bit when we were talking before about what I'm looking into a new hire. So curiosity is good. So what's your attitude towards a new challenge and how good you are in not being scared? It's okay. It's interesting. I see that it's important. Let's go figure that out.

Fiona: 10:08 Yeah. Why not? That's it. What's the most valuable marketing skill you can have?

Lucio: 10:17 A big outside in. Always the customer ...

Fiona: 10:23 So you mean customer focused?

Lucio: 10:24 Customer focused and customer is not necessarily only the customer. Can be the partners, can be the channel, the market viewpoint. Bring that. You're supposed to be the advocate as a market [crosstalk 00:10:37] of what the market is thinking, where the market is going, and how the mind is reacting to your proposition. So make sure that you stay very, very close to the market, to the customer because that's ...

Fiona: 10:49 And how can you do that? You're absolutely spot on. It's valid but if you're not there and you just joined a company and you need to get that, how can you do that quickly and efficiently? What would you do?

Lucio: 11:02 Don't miss any opportunity of physically talking with customers. You can do that. If your company is not automatically offering you that opportunity try to build it right? So try to insert yourself into a council meeting. Do that regularly. Or into a department meeting. B and be proactive in reaching out and try to do that as a discipline for yourself. So a good idea is trying to ... Whatever is the right cadence for you, try say, "Look, my program is that I will talk with the customer every week," and on Friday you track have I done it or not? Friday morning. So if you have not done it, you could still do it in the afternoon, right, and force yourself.

Lucio: 11:51 At the beginning you need to have a discipline and then it will become automatic and it will build a lot of credibility, you personally. So I would be surprised if after you've done it for a little while sales, or channel people, or even partners will now come automatically to you and say, "Hey Fiona, we matter," or "Fiona, I saw you were talking with this customer. May I have some of your time because I have another customer meeting come."

Lucio: 12:23 So at some point in time will become a self ...

Fiona: 12:26 Self-fulfilling prophecy ...

Lucio: 12:29 Prophecy, right. And your conversations also, internally, will change because it makes a huge difference when in a meeting you say, "I think of this and that," and you are maybe absolutely right. You may have done all your homework, write a lot of stuff, and your opinion can be spot on. But if you say ... Recently I spoke with two customers and out of this conversation, this is what I understood. Your the impact on the organisation and the internal conversation is totally different. Your credibility is ten times bigger.

Fiona: 13:13 Perfect. Well I think that's a valid argument for pretty much any marketing job and in any company. Isn't it? It's perfect advice. Brilliant. It's often said that you can be paid in money or experience. Looking back on your career, how often did you value experience over a higher salary and did you strike a good balance?

Lucio: 13:34 Yeah. I think I never moved down in salary, but I rejected offers with the higher salaries. That's happened more than once. So fundamentally ...

Fiona: 13:52 So you weren't money motivated then?

Lucio: 13:56 Money? Money's a [crosstalk 00:13:57]

Fiona: 13:58 It helps.

Lucio: 13:59 It helps attract you. It also depends where you are in your career, and what's your family situation, and so forth.

Fiona: 14:04 Absolutely.

Lucio: 14:05 Let's be honest. But for me, I always had the three criteria for deciding in front of a new opportunity or also, you know, to ask myself, am I happy where I am today or should I look for a change? And the three criteria are the challenge, the people, and the compensation. Challenges, how much what I'm doing or what I'm supposed to be doing the next future. Is intellectual challenging? Will give me exposure to new problems? Will I learn something different? How stimulating it is, right? Somewhat it's people and it's not your manager, your team. It's everybody, right? The people, do I like, do I respect, and do I like the people I work with or do I work for? Maybe also people outside of the company and these two criteria are the important ones.

Lucio: 15:04 Third is the compensation is important but comes the third after the first and second. Especially if you are in your early career stages you should ... Also as an investor, right? If you are young, your whole life so you should invest for the long term. So, frankly, 10% more money or even 20% more salary today does not make a big difference when later on you will look at your whole career. If you build stronger, good experience, and good relationship with the people who can teach you and so forth your salary, it will be way more interesting [crostalk 00:15:48] ....

Fiona: 15:47 Will compensate. Yeah, yeah. Very good. Gender pay gap and percentage of male versus female leadership roles. Do you think this challenge needs addressing in our industry and if so, how?

Lucio: 16:00 I don't know what you mean by industry. If you mean marketing ...

Fiona: 16:04 Marketing specific with [B to B 00:16:06] tech.

Lucio: 16:06 Okay. So I think in market this is a little, relatively speaking, a smaller issue, right? But it is an issue everywhere. In some sectors, in some industries is dramatic. Honestly I think it's a sign of stupidity and it's a unbelievable missed opportunity. Technically, technically and statistically it's like if you say, "Blonde people deserve a lower salary." What's the logic behind it? So I changed my mind recently. I think the only way to fix it is to force it because probably in the long term it will kind of come automatically as a, as people change their mind and, frankly, also because if you look at really senior position, a normally very senior position are hired from the level below.

Lucio: 17:04 But if in the level below there are no females then technically it's very hard, right? But when you want to hire a chief executive, something, you would probably hire taking this person from the VPs or the senior VPs and if there are no females ... Yeah, it's harder. So it longer term it may fix itself, but like the famous economists say, "The longer term we will all be dead." So the only way I think is to force it.

Fiona: 17:31 Yeah. So challenge it. Question it and keep asking for it.

Lucio: 17:35 [crosstalk 00:17:35] the organisation at this level, given this percentage with some flexibility plus/ minus needs to be female. At this other level this percentage needs to be female. Now if you are off the ...

Fiona: 17:49 Off the chart then fix it.

Lucio: 17:52 Then fix it. Go fix it. Simple. It's that managers always have a bunch of metrics. This would be another one.

Fiona: 17:58 Yeah.

Lucio: 17:58 Not a problem to add it on, so...

Fiona: 18:01 Just another number.

Lucio: 18:01 Exactly.

Fiona: 18:04 And what advice have you received from your mentor that made the most impact?

Lucio: 18:10 Well, many, many. I have been very lucky. I also been proactive in always look for having good mentors and that's something I certainly recommend. But two things come to mind? Listen, that was very important advice. Listen and make sure you understand before you start asking question or before you jump to conclusions. And the other one, which is also I think incredibly important. Keep smiling. That has to do with the attitude but also has to do with you feeling good as a human being. Okay? Take the business seriously but don't take yourself too seriously or of the people you're working ... So have fun. Keep smiling. Bring a positive attitude to the organisation. Be Positive.

Fiona: 19:09 Perfect. So the eternal optimist and a positive attitude makes it a good listener, I suppose, also. Because if you're smiling, then people are likely to carry on talking.

Lucio: 19:21 Yeah. Simply, yes. Ask yourself that question, right? If you want to have a conversation, if you needed to have a conversation with somebody would you go to a person who is friendly and smiling or would you go to the person who was always pessimistic and negative?

Fiona: 19:36 Yeah.

Lucio: 19:36 Other people would do exactly the same. So if you want to have influence in the organisation keep smiling. And by the way it's also good for you as a human being.

Fiona: 19:44 And the sort of mentors, I suppose, that you mentioned that you've had many and that you proactively go after them or you know, proactively encourage or nurture those relationships ... What sort of mentors are they? Do you sort of look for marketing or do you look for a specific skillset, or characteristic, or insight? What is it that sort of triggers that interest from your perspective that made you think, "Right, how can I build a relationship with this person so I can learn?" What is it?

Lucio: 20:16 Yeah, that is no right or wrong answer or right or wrong mentor. Fr example, something that I think is very, very useful is what some people call a reverse mentoring. So more junior people being your mentor, right?

Fiona: 20:30 Yeah.

Lucio: 20:31 That's very powerful and very fun, by the way. Normally I was looking ... I think when you select a mentor you tend to ask people you like. That's cool because then the conversation is a very pleasant. But it's useful, also, sometimes to ask people you do not like. And people who, or to work a little bit on your weaknesses. I think it normally is a good advise to work on your strengths. You can improve on your weaknesses. Very often you can't become ... completely fix them. Maybe your passion will never go there. Okay.

Lucio: 21:18 But be aware of your weaknesses and sometimes maybe good to have a mentor who is actually very strong on some of the areas where you're weak and that have been, for example, career limiting factors for you. That can also help.

Fiona: 21:32 Yeah, that's really good insight actually. So if finance, for example, isn't a strength of yours then maybe corner that finance director, and sit down with them, and understand a bit more about what they look for and what they need or ...

Lucio: 21:46 Yeah.

Fiona: 21:47 ... why they don't like your reports, or why they don't like your plans, or you know ...

Lucio: 21:51 Yeah.

Fiona: 21:52 Go to where the pain point is.

Lucio: 21:54 I would do it with a purpose. So if in your career you want to develop and move into a role where ... To use an example, finance is important and you are not strong in that, then it may be a good idea to a look for a mentor with financial background or in the financial department. Or if you're applying for a job and you have not been selected of course, always ask a feedback, right? Always ask why I was not selected.

Lucio: 22:25 If the feedback was, "You look pretty good on many, many things, but we thought you are too weak." And so for that type of role you need to develop this skill better. Maybe you will never be the guru but you need to be at the sufficient level. Then, again, that's another good indication that probably you need to have ... A mentor at least in that area can help you.

Fiona: 22:49 Yeah.

Lucio: 22:50 And in this situation sometimes people simply have a monthly or quarterly conversations with their mentor. Something they think is useful when you are really working on fixing a gap your profile is to ask the mentor if he or she can give you a project that you work on. Because you have another job, right? Probably it's not realistic that you really will take the lead on a project, right, but maybe you can be associated into.

Lucio: 23:22 Ask your mentor, 'Look, if there is a project in this area and somebody in your team is working on it. May I be associated into that?" And so I learn the project. I see how he or she is working on it and how you are reacting to the proposals. So makes it way more concrete because then normally when mentorship relationship is only based on the conversation my experience is that the first conversation's fantastic. The second is a little bit lower energy. Sometimes the third is not even scheduled because what do we have to say to each other?

Fiona: 23:58 We've already covered it. I mean, yeah. But no, the projects idea is genius, actually. Really, really good advice. Thank you. What are the marketing skills of the future? I.e, what do we invest in? Growth hacking, inbound ABM automation? The list goes on. How would you spend your time?

Lucio: 24:15 That's a long list. Growth hacking or agile thinking, which is not the same thing but is similar in a sense, absolutely very important. Speed, the idea of testing and be perfect enough rather than perfect. All these kinda similar, again, to the agile principle are although very important ... But you know there are some fundamentals which will not change. And I think for junior people there is a little bit the danger of thinking that some techniques or some new tactics in marketing like would be digital, social, [progamity 00:25:05], whatever they are answer. So again, the fundamental is customer first. Make, make sure you know your market. Make sure you know your customer, their reaction, their needs, and so forth. Maybe the tools to acquire the knowledge or to acquire the insights are changing, right? But make sure that this stays your true north.

Fiona: 25:27 Very good. What book do you recommend the most to B to B marketers or where do you read? Where do you go for information? How do you keep up?

Lucio: 25:38 You said book?

Fiona: 25:40 Yeah, book.

Lucio: 25:43 Yeah. I'm reading so many cool books recently. So one that is, I think, excellent is Thinking Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman. It's not new. It's not a new book but it's fantastic and it has been and still is incredible influential. So I believe that if you read that one it will give you, let me say, tools that will continue to be useful for several years to come. Another good one, but I forgot the name of the author is The Content Trap.

Fiona: 26:23 The Content Trap, okay.

Lucio: 26:25 Talks about the network effect. That's also an excellent book, I believe. A third one, ... It's not a business book. It's not a marketing book either, but I think is very insightful is Predictability, Irrational, Dan Ariely.

Fiona: 26:48 Predictably Irrational.

Lucio: 26:51 It's not so different from Thinking Fast and Slow in nature. It's a little bit easier reading. Thinking Fast and Slow is ...

Fiona: 27:06 It's quite hard going.

Lucio: 27:06 Quite.

Fiona: 27:06 Yeah.

Lucio: 27:06 Another one that is not a marketing book but is fantastic is Black Swan.

Fiona: 27:10 Ah, okay.

Lucio: 27:12 That's also not easy.

Fiona: 27:13 Yeah.

Lucio: 27:14 But is excellent, excellent book. This Predictably Irrational is a little bit easier reading and it in talks about how, of course, you always believe you're rational ...

Fiona: 27:28 Of course.

Lucio: 27:28 Your decisions.

Fiona: 27:29 Of course.

Lucio: 27:30 You try hard to be rational and you pretend, "Oh, I'm a rational person," right?

Fiona: 27:35 Yeah, yeah.

Lucio: 27:35 Actually you are not and it's quite predictable to say when you will or will not be rational in your decisions because normally people tend to make the same mistakes which tend to influence in their decision process by given patterns that are predictable which it, if you, if you like this book with Daniel Kahneman is basically your system one stepping in, right?

Fiona: 28:06 Yeah.

Lucio: 28:06 You think your system two is in control, but in fact is your system one. The way this author says the same thing is it's actually a little bit more easier to read and more fun, very practical with some experiments that he's done with ...

Fiona: 28:24 Fantastic. So it's kind of a book of insight into the human condition and how we operate. And keeping that in mind, obviously, makes a huge impact on the marketing [crosstalk 00:28:34] ...

Lucio: 28:34 How you can influence or you can take advantage of these ...

Fiona: 28:37 Yeah, exactly.

Lucio: 28:38 .... trends and patterns. Another excellent author, I think I read all his books, is ... I'm so bad with names. It's very, very famous one, you know, always in the top 100 most influential people. He wrote books like Blink.

Fiona: 28:59 Oh, yes. Is it Malcolm Gladwell?

Lucio: 29:03 Exactly, exactly. Blink. Fantastic book. In fact, all his books ...

Fiona: 29:09 [crosstalk 00:29:09] decision.

Lucio: 29:10 Yeah, all his books are really good. The other one where he talks about you need to have 10,000 hours of practice.

Fiona: 29:20 Yes. I love that.

Lucio: 29:23 What was the book?

Fiona: 29:25 We'll put it in the notes, don't worry. So we'll have all these links to these wonderful books ready for you. What parting words of wisdom or advice would you share with our audience?

Lucio: 29:33 Be Yourself.

Fiona: 29:37 At work? In person?

Lucio: 29:38 Always.

Fiona: 29:39 Always.

Lucio: 29:40 Yeah.

Fiona: 29:41 So you use your voice?

Lucio: 29:43 Yeah, be yourself, be happy. Sometimes I see or I'm mentoring people who are really unhappy in their job or in their company. Change it.

Fiona: 29:59 There's no need to ... You said something interesting earlier, actually, about the, "Be prepared to leave," and then we didn't get to touch on that much before, but I'm guessing this is maybe where that philosophy stems from, that whole, "If it's not working out for you be prepared to leave." You're not a tree.

Lucio: 30:22 Yeah, exactly.

Fiona: 30:23 Yeah.

Lucio: 30:25 I don't want to be confused or ... I think I'm hyper-committed. anything that I'm doing I'm 100% committed and I put 100% of the energy into that. And I'm not doing that thinking, "Hey, I will leave in three months," okay?

Fiona: 30:45 No, yeah.

Lucio: 30:46 I do it for the long run. All this true, still ... Hey, be preferred to leave because there might be better opportunities or the company may, the situation, the business may not need you anymore in this role and make sure that this does not become a drama for you, right? Because there is no reason to make it a drama.

Fiona: 31:09 Which, touching on that, being prepared to leave, you have now left ...

Lucio: 31:16 I just left.

Fiona: 31:16 ... on a new journey and a new challenge. So where can people find you? What's the future hold for Lucio Fulani?

Lucio: 31:24 Yeah, to put this in a context, I mean, I left Hewlett Packard Enterprise before it was HP after 24 years.

Fiona: 31:33 Yep.

Lucio: 31:33 So it has been a fantastic exp- We had bad days.

Fiona: 31:38 Of course.

Lucio: 31:38 Of course. It's not an every day was fantastic but overall was a fantastic experience. I've been very lucky. I think I gave a lot to the company, but the company gave way more to me, frankly. I would absolutely redo it, and I learned a lot, and I met so many fantastic, excellent people.

Lucio: 32:03 The kind of the ... one of the problems that builds into when you work in any large organisation, not Hewlett Packard Enterprises, any type of large organisation is that they become a little bit too much self referential because they have so much power of attraction. They become little bit like a planet in the solar system. Right? And you lose a little bit the outside world perspective.

Lucio: 32:32 I left what I ... What was a bit of a surprise in a sense and is incredibly enjoyable is how many opportunities are there around us in the world. If you like one of the risk, one of the challenges that they have now is stay focused because you cannot take all the opportunities. You need to be very, very selective and it's fascinating, energising. I like being front end with customers. What I'm doing now is I'm building on what I've done for the last 40 years, which is B to B marketing in high tech, international combining marketing execution with strategy, company strategy and I'm doing it for other companies for forecast. I'm advising general managers or chief executive officers on their company strategy, particularly on growth. So I called my initiative Crescendo because if most of my customers are here in the UK or outside of it. I have an obviously Italian [crosstalk 00:33:42]

Fiona: 33:41 I was going to say that's a bit of an accent.

Lucio: 33:46 So crescendo means growing in Italian. Most people understand it because it's a term used in music. So now many people, when I say my initiative is called Crescendo normally people smile, which is a good beginning.

Fiona: 34:00 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well that's fantastic. Well, we wish you all the best with Crescendo ...

Lucio: 34:04 Thank you.

Fiona: 34:05 And we shall listen for it in the future, 'cause no doubt we will hear of you again.

Lucio: 34:09 Thank you. Thank you very much for the opportunity.

Fiona: 34:16 So there you have it. Career advice from a real marketing expert and leader in the field. Thanks for listening. If you're enjoying this podcast then please leave us a review in iTunes. We'd love to hear your feedback.

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